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	<title>Comments on: Who cares if you care?</title>
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	<link>http://www.dennisdesantis.com/2010/04/30/who-cares-if-you-care</link>
	<description>Composer, Sound Designer, Percussionist</description>
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		<title>By: Dennis DeSantis</title>
		<link>http://www.dennisdesantis.com/2010/04/30/who-cares-if-you-care/comment-page-1#comment-249</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis DeSantis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 08:47:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennisdesantis.com/?p=1466#comment-249</guid>
		<description>This is hilarious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is hilarious.</p>
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		<title>By: ray</title>
		<link>http://www.dennisdesantis.com/2010/04/30/who-cares-if-you-care/comment-page-1#comment-248</link>
		<dc:creator>ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jun 2010 03:55:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennisdesantis.com/?p=1466#comment-248</guid>
		<description>People in these kinds of discussions are always decrying &quot;elitism&quot; as if its a bad thing - but really, some things are BETTER than others! A play by Shakespeare is better than an episode of an afternoon soap opera. Herman Melville&#039;s novel Moby Dick is better than Stephanie Meyer&#039;s novel Twilight - just because someone likes Twilight better doesnt make it better. Similarly, whether some find it offensive or not, classical music is superior - certainly Beethoven&#039;s Missa Solemnis is a greater musical achievement than a Lady Gaga album. I dont think most discerning people would disagree with that.
Classical music stands on a higher level for good reason - it&#039;s endured longer, while styles of &quot;pop&quot; music come and go. Not only that&#039;s its more complex and technically demanding - if a person can learn and play something like Beethoven&#039;s Hammerklavier Sonata, or Bach&#039;s toccata in F for organ,that&#039;s a great musical achievement. Learning this music takes a huge amount of time and effort and technical skill - a lot more than some rock guitarist just playing simple chords!
I write music as well as being an organist, and I grew up listening to popular music too - but no matter how much I liked that, for me classical music was always on a higher level, not because someone else told me I should feel that way, but because I just knew in my heart (and my ears) it was something greater.
As for some of the other comments, for the person who liked some rock group better than Mozart, well, maybe you&#039;re the one whose missing something.  Maybe it&#039;s not Mozart&#039;s fault but a lack of musical discernment on your part!
And as far as the &quot;modernists undermining tradition,&quot; they didnt really undermine anything, since the traditional music went right on being played no matter what &quot;musical innovations&quot; they came up with - look at the Boulez/Stockhausen/Darmstadt school in the 1950s, living in a fantasy world where they thought they were creating &quot;cutting edge new music,&quot; completely oblivious to the fact that audiences despised it for the most part.
&quot;Classical&quot; classical music still has plenty of cultural relevance - as an organist I take part in performances of Handel&#039;s Messiah every year, and people enjoy that tremendously - even though the singers are amateurs and not everything is perfect, the music still says something to the people listening - for them its not irrelevant at all!
Trying to combine classical and non-classical music is pointless - people have been making the attempt for decades-  and why bother? Let classical stay on its side and popular music on the other - its better that way! You can&#039;t exactly combine a sonata form with a pop song, and rambling formless improvisations (which is what the &quot;alt classical&quot; music Ive heard over the internet sounds like for the most part) is not going to create any groundswell of interest.  It might find a small limited audience but thats all!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People in these kinds of discussions are always decrying &#8220;elitism&#8221; as if its a bad thing &#8211; but really, some things are BETTER than others! A play by Shakespeare is better than an episode of an afternoon soap opera. Herman Melville&#8217;s novel Moby Dick is better than Stephanie Meyer&#8217;s novel Twilight &#8211; just because someone likes Twilight better doesnt make it better. Similarly, whether some find it offensive or not, classical music is superior &#8211; certainly Beethoven&#8217;s Missa Solemnis is a greater musical achievement than a Lady Gaga album. I dont think most discerning people would disagree with that.<br />
Classical music stands on a higher level for good reason &#8211; it&#8217;s endured longer, while styles of &#8220;pop&#8221; music come and go. Not only that&#8217;s its more complex and technically demanding &#8211; if a person can learn and play something like Beethoven&#8217;s Hammerklavier Sonata, or Bach&#8217;s toccata in F for organ,that&#8217;s a great musical achievement. Learning this music takes a huge amount of time and effort and technical skill &#8211; a lot more than some rock guitarist just playing simple chords!<br />
I write music as well as being an organist, and I grew up listening to popular music too &#8211; but no matter how much I liked that, for me classical music was always on a higher level, not because someone else told me I should feel that way, but because I just knew in my heart (and my ears) it was something greater.<br />
As for some of the other comments, for the person who liked some rock group better than Mozart, well, maybe you&#8217;re the one whose missing something.  Maybe it&#8217;s not Mozart&#8217;s fault but a lack of musical discernment on your part!<br />
And as far as the &#8220;modernists undermining tradition,&#8221; they didnt really undermine anything, since the traditional music went right on being played no matter what &#8220;musical innovations&#8221; they came up with &#8211; look at the Boulez/Stockhausen/Darmstadt school in the 1950s, living in a fantasy world where they thought they were creating &#8220;cutting edge new music,&#8221; completely oblivious to the fact that audiences despised it for the most part.<br />
&#8220;Classical&#8221; classical music still has plenty of cultural relevance &#8211; as an organist I take part in performances of Handel&#8217;s Messiah every year, and people enjoy that tremendously &#8211; even though the singers are amateurs and not everything is perfect, the music still says something to the people listening &#8211; for them its not irrelevant at all!<br />
Trying to combine classical and non-classical music is pointless &#8211; people have been making the attempt for decades-  and why bother? Let classical stay on its side and popular music on the other &#8211; its better that way! You can&#8217;t exactly combine a sonata form with a pop song, and rambling formless improvisations (which is what the &#8220;alt classical&#8221; music Ive heard over the internet sounds like for the most part) is not going to create any groundswell of interest.  It might find a small limited audience but thats all!</p>
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		<title>By: matan Rubinstein</title>
		<link>http://www.dennisdesantis.com/2010/04/30/who-cares-if-you-care/comment-page-1#comment-227</link>
		<dc:creator>matan Rubinstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 May 2010 01:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennisdesantis.com/?p=1466#comment-227</guid>
		<description>First, I don&#039;t think we will never understand each other. For instance,  when I think of alt classical I think of those &quot;mozart with a beat&quot; recordings from the late 70&#039;s only with distortion added.

Let me see if I can clarify my the notion of significance. I think of significance like physical mass. You mentioned Mozart earlier- a very significant composer, who&#039;s music you don&#039;t like. And yet, your personal opinion of him does not diminish his significance to you. (After all, why bother naming him in your dichotomous pairing? Surely, Mendelssohn would have done just as well?) Anyway,  in my understanding of significance, it works a lot like organized religion, in that it produces a notion you can either affirm (yes! Mozart is the master of the german culture!) or deny (as you did). (I do not know Flying Lotus, but I will check it out). In other words, you may worship or sin, as your will moves you.  I really appreciate kosher laws, for instance, because they make shrimp taste so much better. I also really appreciate The Wall, because I have this love/hate relationship  with it that parallels my love/hate relationship with myself at 14. In both cases, I gain pleasure and insight by imbuing an object with significance. 
I totally agree that manufacturing significance is very difficult. I do, however, think it is more worthwhile than manufacturing relevance, which is totally ridiculous. Without the notion of significance one is only left with materialistic dichotomies (record sales vs. artistic merit) which are, I feel, tired and repetitive. (Plus Beyonce is so much hotter than any alt classical composer I have ever seen.) If one leaves out any claims of worth beyond onerself,  all one is left with is a pretty depressing position of continuously affirming the total waste of time one&#039;s work is. Those kids with cracked software you mention: who would BOTHER noticing them, if they deny their worth? I&#039;m not saying one should try to insert their music into music appreciation course books, but shouldn&#039;t musicians try to enhance the mass of their music&#039;s impact by design?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, I don&#8217;t think we will never understand each other. For instance,  when I think of alt classical I think of those &#8220;mozart with a beat&#8221; recordings from the late 70&#8242;s only with distortion added.</p>
<p>Let me see if I can clarify my the notion of significance. I think of significance like physical mass. You mentioned Mozart earlier- a very significant composer, who&#8217;s music you don&#8217;t like. And yet, your personal opinion of him does not diminish his significance to you. (After all, why bother naming him in your dichotomous pairing? Surely, Mendelssohn would have done just as well?) Anyway,  in my understanding of significance, it works a lot like organized religion, in that it produces a notion you can either affirm (yes! Mozart is the master of the german culture!) or deny (as you did). (I do not know Flying Lotus, but I will check it out). In other words, you may worship or sin, as your will moves you.  I really appreciate kosher laws, for instance, because they make shrimp taste so much better. I also really appreciate The Wall, because I have this love/hate relationship  with it that parallels my love/hate relationship with myself at 14. In both cases, I gain pleasure and insight by imbuing an object with significance.<br />
I totally agree that manufacturing significance is very difficult. I do, however, think it is more worthwhile than manufacturing relevance, which is totally ridiculous. Without the notion of significance one is only left with materialistic dichotomies (record sales vs. artistic merit) which are, I feel, tired and repetitive. (Plus Beyonce is so much hotter than any alt classical composer I have ever seen.) If one leaves out any claims of worth beyond onerself,  all one is left with is a pretty depressing position of continuously affirming the total waste of time one&#8217;s work is. Those kids with cracked software you mention: who would BOTHER noticing them, if they deny their worth? I&#8217;m not saying one should try to insert their music into music appreciation course books, but shouldn&#8217;t musicians try to enhance the mass of their music&#8217;s impact by design?</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis DeSantis</title>
		<link>http://www.dennisdesantis.com/2010/04/30/who-cares-if-you-care/comment-page-1#comment-226</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis DeSantis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 May 2010 03:00:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennisdesantis.com/?p=1466#comment-226</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s at this point that I&#039;m going to have to don my flame-retardant suit, because my opinion on the issue of government grants for the arts isn&#039;t popular among people who are vying for government grants for the arts.  In fact, it makes me sound like Rush Limbaugh.

At least in the US, I think state funding for the arts is kind of horrible.  It&#039;s not horrible *in principle*. But in practice, it&#039;s an insider&#039;s joke.

You hit on the reason why yourself.  As a jazz musician, your opportunities for these grants are certainly limited.  But I disagree that you have the worst of it.

Most of the music I listen to these days is probably made by teenagers with cracked software, toiling away in their bedrooms.  The lucky ones get signed to a digital-only label, where they&#039;ll sell a few hundred mp3s, maybe get to play a couple gigs in Eastern Europe, and (if they get paid at all), probably earn the cost of their rent for a couple months.  The rest of them give their music away for free at places like MySpace and Soundcloud and hope that someone will notice.

These folks are absolutely ineligible for &quot;arts&quot; grants of any kind.  To the folks that grant those grants, this music is commercially viable; because &quot;commercially viable&quot; is academic code for &quot;you don&#039;t have the appropriate credentials.&quot;

And sorry, but if you&#039;re writing music for 4 helicopters, do you need a grant?  No.  You&#039;re either Stockhausen, and therefore don&#039;t need a subsidy.  Or you&#039;re not Stockhausen and you need to be realistic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s at this point that I&#8217;m going to have to don my flame-retardant suit, because my opinion on the issue of government grants for the arts isn&#8217;t popular among people who are vying for government grants for the arts.  In fact, it makes me sound like Rush Limbaugh.</p>
<p>At least in the US, I think state funding for the arts is kind of horrible.  It&#8217;s not horrible *in principle*. But in practice, it&#8217;s an insider&#8217;s joke.</p>
<p>You hit on the reason why yourself.  As a jazz musician, your opportunities for these grants are certainly limited.  But I disagree that you have the worst of it.</p>
<p>Most of the music I listen to these days is probably made by teenagers with cracked software, toiling away in their bedrooms.  The lucky ones get signed to a digital-only label, where they&#8217;ll sell a few hundred mp3s, maybe get to play a couple gigs in Eastern Europe, and (if they get paid at all), probably earn the cost of their rent for a couple months.  The rest of them give their music away for free at places like MySpace and Soundcloud and hope that someone will notice.</p>
<p>These folks are absolutely ineligible for &#8220;arts&#8221; grants of any kind.  To the folks that grant those grants, this music is commercially viable; because &#8220;commercially viable&#8221; is academic code for &#8220;you don&#8217;t have the appropriate credentials.&#8221;</p>
<p>And sorry, but if you&#8217;re writing music for 4 helicopters, do you need a grant?  No.  You&#8217;re either Stockhausen, and therefore don&#8217;t need a subsidy.  Or you&#8217;re not Stockhausen and you need to be realistic.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis DeSantis</title>
		<link>http://www.dennisdesantis.com/2010/04/30/who-cares-if-you-care/comment-page-1#comment-225</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis DeSantis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 May 2010 02:48:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennisdesantis.com/?p=1466#comment-225</guid>
		<description>Hey folks,

Sorry, a bunch of your comments got flagged as spam by my overzealous spam filters.  Working on it...

Good discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey folks,</p>
<p>Sorry, a bunch of your comments got flagged as spam by my overzealous spam filters.  Working on it&#8230;</p>
<p>Good discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis DeSantis</title>
		<link>http://www.dennisdesantis.com/2010/04/30/who-cares-if-you-care/comment-page-1#comment-224</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis DeSantis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 May 2010 02:38:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennisdesantis.com/?p=1466#comment-224</guid>
		<description>Indeed, this does sound like 1957 to me, but that&#039;s not necessarily a bad thing.  It&#039;s just that we&#039;re approaching the problem from entirely different mindsets, and may never see eye to eye.

In one area, however, I basically agree with you.  Why should any performer take the time to learn my music?  I found myself increasingly unable to answer this question, which is why I don&#039;t really write music for people anymore.  I don&#039;t have to worry about this problem with computers.

But &quot;Significance&quot; (with or without the capital S) feels no different to me than relevance.  You&#039;re not going to be able to tell me what it means.  You MIGHT be able to tell me what it means TO YOU or to some other particular person, but when you try to apply it to something as large as a culture - or even a single audience - then it becomes meaningless again.  These just aren&#039;t the sorts of words that can have anything close to an absolute meaning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, this does sound like 1957 to me, but that&#8217;s not necessarily a bad thing.  It&#8217;s just that we&#8217;re approaching the problem from entirely different mindsets, and may never see eye to eye.</p>
<p>In one area, however, I basically agree with you.  Why should any performer take the time to learn my music?  I found myself increasingly unable to answer this question, which is why I don&#8217;t really write music for people anymore.  I don&#8217;t have to worry about this problem with computers.</p>
<p>But &#8220;Significance&#8221; (with or without the capital S) feels no different to me than relevance.  You&#8217;re not going to be able to tell me what it means.  You MIGHT be able to tell me what it means TO YOU or to some other particular person, but when you try to apply it to something as large as a culture &#8211; or even a single audience &#8211; then it becomes meaningless again.  These just aren&#8217;t the sorts of words that can have anything close to an absolute meaning.</p>
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		<title>By: A Dollar Extra Shrimp &#124; MyMusicWeb</title>
		<link>http://www.dennisdesantis.com/2010/04/30/who-cares-if-you-care/comment-page-1#comment-223</link>
		<dc:creator>A Dollar Extra Shrimp &#124; MyMusicWeb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 May 2010 23:12:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennisdesantis.com/?p=1466#comment-223</guid>
		<description>[...] very relaxing in the context of all this yammering about style &amp; genre on the internet of late. Dennis DeSantis wrote a nice retort and dismissal of all of it, which I would like to quote: &#8220;Figure out what you [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] very relaxing in the context of all this yammering about style &amp; genre on the internet of late. Dennis DeSantis wrote a nice retort and dismissal of all of it, which I would like to quote: &#8220;Figure out what you [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Evan Ziporyn</title>
		<link>http://www.dennisdesantis.com/2010/04/30/who-cares-if-you-care/comment-page-1#comment-222</link>
		<dc:creator>Evan Ziporyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 May 2010 21:22:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennisdesantis.com/?p=1466#comment-222</guid>
		<description>&#039;my god, what does sound have to do with music?&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;my god, what does sound have to do with music?&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Is Discussing Music Counterproductive? &#171; Matt Marks Music</title>
		<link>http://www.dennisdesantis.com/2010/04/30/who-cares-if-you-care/comment-page-1#comment-221</link>
		<dc:creator>Is Discussing Music Counterproductive? &#171; Matt Marks Music</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 May 2010 18:49:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennisdesantis.com/?p=1466#comment-221</guid>
		<description>[...] Dennis Desantis weighed in on the &#8216;why are we even discussing this?&#8217;-tip: The only thing that’s ever mattered about any piece of music, ever, is what it sounds like. Martin Bresnick used to talk about how a good piece of music should make you check for your wallet; you should feel like you got your ass kicked after listening to it. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Dennis Desantis weighed in on the &#8216;why are we even discussing this?&#8217;-tip: The only thing that’s ever mattered about any piece of music, ever, is what it sounds like. Martin Bresnick used to talk about how a good piece of music should make you check for your wallet; you should feel like you got your ass kicked after listening to it. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: matan Rubinstein</title>
		<link>http://www.dennisdesantis.com/2010/04/30/who-cares-if-you-care/comment-page-1#comment-220</link>
		<dc:creator>matan Rubinstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 May 2010 15:58:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dennisdesantis.com/?p=1466#comment-220</guid>
		<description>But what about [notice the capital s] Significance? Shouldn&#039;t people aim for it, at least? I know I&#039;m being the voice of 1957, Kansas U. musicology department here, but, still... why do the whole endevour? Why end up with a permanent artifact representing a musical imagining? Aren&#039;t people being a little facetious writing scores for strangers to perform, while disowning the implied stab at immortality they represent? &quot;I like it &#039;cause it sounds good&quot; sounds like one of those post-hippy axioms that have now become standardized among the music literati- the &quot;i&#039;m okay, you&#039;re okay&quot; of the music world. This approach is, of course, completely legitimate. It fails to answer the question of why, through this morass of over-information through which we slog daily, trying to barely maintain our sanity, should I pick the thing YOU like, out of about a billion others, and commit to it enough to listen to it? Further, to actually practice it enough times to make it a part of my muscle memory so I can perform it? 
We are all engaged in filtering our input of information, and we all curate our musical experience. I , for one, find genre to be a poor curatorial device. I would much rather some people would take the challenge of making some value judgements larger that reasonably discuss the Significance of a body of work, so I can listen to their curated playlist. I would like to get a better set of reasons than &quot;because this is the music I grew up with&quot; as the choices for composers. 
Now that all is permitted, can we at least TRY to make stuff that has a reason to last? Why does the attempt alone feel so...sacrilegious? And isn&#039;t that alone a good enough reason to try?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But what about [notice the capital s] Significance? Shouldn&#8217;t people aim for it, at least? I know I&#8217;m being the voice of 1957, Kansas U. musicology department here, but, still&#8230; why do the whole endevour? Why end up with a permanent artifact representing a musical imagining? Aren&#8217;t people being a little facetious writing scores for strangers to perform, while disowning the implied stab at immortality they represent? &#8220;I like it &#8217;cause it sounds good&#8221; sounds like one of those post-hippy axioms that have now become standardized among the music literati- the &#8220;i&#8217;m okay, you&#8217;re okay&#8221; of the music world. This approach is, of course, completely legitimate. It fails to answer the question of why, through this morass of over-information through which we slog daily, trying to barely maintain our sanity, should I pick the thing YOU like, out of about a billion others, and commit to it enough to listen to it? Further, to actually practice it enough times to make it a part of my muscle memory so I can perform it?<br />
We are all engaged in filtering our input of information, and we all curate our musical experience. I , for one, find genre to be a poor curatorial device. I would much rather some people would take the challenge of making some value judgements larger that reasonably discuss the Significance of a body of work, so I can listen to their curated playlist. I would like to get a better set of reasons than &#8220;because this is the music I grew up with&#8221; as the choices for composers.<br />
Now that all is permitted, can we at least TRY to make stuff that has a reason to last? Why does the attempt alone feel so&#8230;sacrilegious? And isn&#8217;t that alone a good enough reason to try?</p>
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